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Need Allison 4000 Series Wall Chart To Replace HT740

This is a public forum to discuss Eagle related technical issues. If you are having a problem with your Eagle, this is the place to find help.
sojourner58
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 7:12 am
Bus Model: 1990 Eagle Model 15

Need Allison 4000 Series Wall Chart To Replace HT740

Post by sojourner58 »

I've made several posts in the past few years but It would probably help to review my situation in greater detail.  Around 6 years ago I purchased a 1982 Model 10 conversion equipped with a Cummins N-14 500 HP engine and Allison HT740 transmission.  It was a beautiful coach but It didn't shift quite right when I test drove it.  Since I had traveled so far to look at it I went against my gut instinct and bought it anyway.  A word to the wise, never travel further to look at a prospective vehicle than you're willing to walk away from if something isn't quite right.  While driving the Eagle home it seemed like it was starting to slip when in reverse.  I stopped in Tennessee to take care of some business.  I asked a local man, while at a convenience store on TN-27 near Jamestown, if  Routes 154 and 297 were decent roads to travel with my coach.  He must have hated Yankees because he said yes.  I was an independent trucker for 15 years, traveled all over the U.S. and have never been on a road worse than TN-297.   There were grades so steep that they gave me white knuckles and hairpin turns that required me taking up both lanes to get around them.  By the time I got to a place where I could pull off the road my temper was high and my transmission temperature was near 250 degrees.   (Later I discovered that there was a switch for a water mist I could have used to spray water on the transmission cooler that would have removed some heat.)  I stopped to let everything cool off and then proceeded towards Rt 27.  On the way to US 75, north of Jellico Mountain, I noticed the transmission started to slip in the forward gears.  After I stopped at a truck stop on I-75 in KY to take a break I noticed it wouldn't go into reverse at all.  I ended up sleeping overnight there and in the morning decided to try driving to the next exit north on I-75.  I kept babying it until I made it home to Ohio.  At least I dodged a huge tow bill.  After sitting a few months when starting it I noticed it would move in reverse if I revved the engine a bit. 

While shopping around I found a used Allison MH4000 6 speed transmission in a motorhome at a salvage yard in MO.  It was removed from a motorhome with a 500 Cummins ISX engine.  After shipping it to my location the local Allison service garage replaced the communications port, which was damaged, changed the fluid and dyno'd it to determine if it shifted correctly.  Everything checked out ok. 

Recently a local Allison tech told me to try changing the fluid and filter to see if that would help the performance of the HT740.  He said there was a chance it could help.  I drained the fluid, removed the filter and dropped the pan.  There were metal fragments and sludge in the pan so evidently the transmission suffered mechanical damage and will need rebuilt.

No shop wants to give me a firm quote to perform the swap so it looks like I'll have to do it myself.  The good news is it looks like there's plenty of clearance to lower the HT740 out of the coach into my grease pit with a transmission jack and install the MH4000.  Allison closely guards its technical information so I'm having difficulty locating a wall chart showing the wiring diagram for a 4000 series transmission.  Any help would be greatly appreciated!

     

         
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luvrbus
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Re: Need Allison 4000 Series Wall Chart To Replace HT740

Post by luvrbus »

I have the application manual for the World Transmission with all the wiring foldouts if you do not find what you need closer (I am in AZ ) I will let you borrow my manuals under one condition that is that you make sure I get it back those manuals are hard to find .E mail me @ callen39@gmail.com  or call nine2845051six2
sojourner58
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 7:12 am
Bus Model: 1990 Eagle Model 15

Re: Need Allison 4000 Series Wall Chart To Replace HT740

Post by sojourner58 »

A lot has transpired since my last post.  I was able to find a mechanic willing to accept my project and has allowed me to help him with the transmission swap in his shop.  We have the Eagle blocked up 3 feet off the floor and have removed the Allison HT740 transmission.  The HD4000MH transmission is ready to install. 

I recently ordered an adapter kit from Allison to mount the 4000 to the N-14 engine in the Eagle.  Unfortunately the kit included a SAE 2 ring gear which won't work with the SAE 1 flywheel housing on the N-14.  An SAE ring gear measures approximately 17 1/2 inches diameter and an SAE 1 ring gear measures approximately 20 inches diameter.  The 4000 came with an SAE 1 bellhousing and ring gear which was used when bolted to the ISX 500 engine.  I might be able to use the flex plates that were used with the ISX 500 but I'm not sure if the crankshaft dimensions and spacing are the same as an N-14.  If someone here in the forum is familiar with Cummins engine interchanges I'd appreciate your thoughts. 
sojourner58
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 7:12 am
Bus Model: 1990 Eagle Model 15

Re: Need Allison 4000 Series Wall Chart To Replace HT740

Post by sojourner58 »

I contacted TKT Sales, the Allison parts wholesaler in NC who supplied my local Allison distributor.  Ted Keating, the owner, explained that the kit requires an SAE 1 flywheel housing that has an SAE 2 starter position designed for the SAE 2 starter ring gear.  Aliison didn't provide a part number because Cummins designed and supplied the flywheel housing for the HD4000 series transmissions.  I contacted the technical department at Cummins' corporate headquarters in Indianapolis.  After doing some research a technician gave me the part number.  I was able to purchase the flywheel housing from Adelman's Truck Parts, a heavy truck parts supplier. 

I may try to replace the 3:36 differential gears while I have the transmission out if I can find a 3:73 or 4:10 ring and pinion set for a reasonable price.  I read a reply to an earlier post I made where a gentleman told me that he would try running it with the 3:36 gears.  I may just run it with 6th gear locked out and see how I like it.      

     
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beltguy
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Re: Need Allison 4000 Series Wall Chart To Replace HT740

Post by beltguy »

Wow, that is great detective work.  Thanks for keeping us posted.  If you have a chance, would you post the part number in case others run into the same issue?

Jim
Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
'85 Eagle 10 with Series 60 & Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission SOLD
2005 Dodge 2500 with 5.9 Cummins and 6 speed manual 2022 Sunset 28 foot trailer
Bus Project pages: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog: https://beltguy.com/Travelogue/
Email: eaglesinternational.email at gmail.com   NOTE this email box is only for general correspondence related to the forum and not technical advice.  Technical questions will not receive a response.
sojourner58
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 7:12 am
Bus Model: 1990 Eagle Model 15

Re: Need Allison 4000 Series Wall Chart To Replace HT740

Post by sojourner58 »

Thanks beltguy, 

The SAE 1 flywheel housing with the SAE 2 starter position for 855 cubic inch Cummins engines is stock number AK3036011 at Adelman's Truck Parts and was priced at $595 plus tax.  The Cummins cross reference part numbers are: 3039960, 3036007, 3032887, 3036081, 3007723, 3101771, 3074381, 3073758, 3035979, 3010569, 3007715, 3003009, 3002987, 3002605, 3002370, 210893, 3036005 and 3036011.  Cummins wanted over $2000 for their flywheel housing.  The one I purchased is an aftermarket universal fit unit so it has 2 bellhousing bolt patterns, one set is for a vertically mounted engine and the other set is for a tilted engine.  The vertical engine set of holes are actually indexed 1 inch clockwise from vertical.  I spoke with an Allison tech, John Davies, at the Columbus, OH branch of W.W. Williams who is knowledgeable about Allison transmission swaps.  He told me it shouldn't hurt the transmission to be tilted slightly to one side.  I'll need to fabricate another dipstick tube and re-mark the dipstick to match the HD4000 fluid level anyway.  Hopefully it will be tilted towards and not away from the drain plug side of the transmission pan. 

Mr Davies told me that the torque converter in my HD4000MH was configured specifically for the M11 Cummins engine that it was originally mated to and that I would probably need a different torque converter configured specifically for a 500 HP Cummins N-14 engine.  I sent him the ID tags from the transmission, the torque converter, the transmission control module, and the touch pad gear selector.  Hopefully he'll be able to determine a torque converter part number for me soon.  He said that I should be a lot happier with the performance of the HD4000. 

My Model 10 has been occupying a bay at a local heavy truck service shop for 6 weeks since we removed the HT740.  He says it's costing him business, since he can't work on as many trucks at a time, so he's giving me a deadline of one more week to have all of the parts ready to install the transmission or he will move the coach out of his building until I have all the parts necessary to do it. 

At the beginning of the project I hired a local rigging company to raise the bus 3 feet off of the floor using portable wheel lifts.  They charged me $2300 just to lift it and will charge another $2300 if I have them let it down.  In the beginning I figured that since the transmission could be dropped out of the bottom and I wouldn't have to disconnect the engine and remove the subframe that carried the engine and transmission it would save time.  If I had known that the Allison adapter kit required a different flywheel housing I would have removed the subframe with a pallet jack.  With the subframe remaining in the coach we had to drop the oil pan and support the engine from underneath.  I could have left the pan on and supported the engine from above if the subframe assembly had been removed.   

I recently finished aligning the new flywheel housing with the crankshaft of the engine using a dial indicator.  After torquing it down it was out of alignment .0035 horizonatally and .07 vertically.  The housing was within closer tolerances when snug but it distorted some after torquing it.  The readings after torquing were 12:00 position - zero, 9:00 position -.0065, 6:00 position -.007, 3:00 position -.010.  I made sure before torquing that the mating surfaces were clean and flat.  Whether or not a Cummins brand flywheel housing would have torqued down without distorting at all I don't know.

Currently I'm fabricating engine mounts for the new flywheel housing and should have them done today.  We'll weld them to the existing mounts that were used for the old flywheel housing.  I'll need to use an angle gauge to make sure the crankshaft of the engine and the pinion shaft of the axle are parallel, and adjust the engine height accordingly, before welding the engine mounts in place. 

I hope this information will be useful for others who are considering a similar Allison transmission swap.  The HT740 that was in my coach was toast so I had the choice of rebuilding it or upgrading to a transmission designed to handle 1800 foot pounds of torque.        
sojourner58
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 7:12 am
Bus Model: 1990 Eagle Model 15

Re: Need Allison 4000 Series Wall Chart To Replace HT740

Post by sojourner58 »

I forgot to post the Allison part number for the adapter kit to mount an HD4000 transmission to a Cummins 855 cubic inch engine- part number 29510943 ($1815), the flexplate adapter which is a ring shaped casting that fits between the torque converter and the flexplates- part number 29505968 ($702),  12 bolts required to connect the ring gear and flexplates to the flexplate adapter ring- part number 11514236 ($347), 12 bolts to mount the flexplate adapter ring to the torque converter- part number 11505232 ($34) and 6 bolts to fasten the flexplates and the crankshaft hub adapter to the crankshaft- part number 29517179 ($480).   
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beltguy
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Re: Need Allison 4000 Series Wall Chart To Replace HT740

Post by beltguy »

I will say it again, this is great information.  Thanks so much for posting the details.

I am on the run for the next couple of days, but I would like to change the title a bit so that it is easier to search.  Would you mind?

Jim
Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
'85 Eagle 10 with Series 60 & Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission SOLD
2005 Dodge 2500 with 5.9 Cummins and 6 speed manual 2022 Sunset 28 foot trailer
Bus Project pages: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog: https://beltguy.com/Travelogue/
Email: eaglesinternational.email at gmail.com   NOTE this email box is only for general correspondence related to the forum and not technical advice.  Technical questions will not receive a response.
sojourner58
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 7:12 am
Bus Model: 1990 Eagle Model 15

Re: Need Allison 4000 Series Wall Chart To Replace HT740

Post by sojourner58 »

beltguy wrote: Mon Aug 07, 2023 7:14 am I will say it again, this is great information.  Thanks so much for posting the details.

I am on the run for the next couple of days, but I would like to change the title a bit so that it is easier to search.  Would you mind?

Jim
 
 
 
 
That's fine with me, Jim.  Just notify me of the new title to so I can keep posting updates.     
sojourner58
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 7:12 am
Bus Model: 1990 Eagle Model 15

Re: Need Allison 4000 Series Wall Chart To Replace HT740

Post by sojourner58 »

Jon Davies, the sales manager at the Columbus branch of W.W. Williams has been the most helpful of all of the Allison associates I've dealt with so far.  I provided him with the serial number of the HD4000MH and he emailed me an Alllison Unit History file for my HD4000MH.  It was manufactured in 2001 and was purchased by Spartan for one of their motorhomes.  It also listed the torque converter part number which Jon used to look up the K factor to see if it was compatible with my application, which it was, fortunately.  The TCM (transmission control module) is a Wtech III which is now obsolete and difficult to find replacements for so I'll probably upgrade to a later version if the Wtech III doesn't function correctly. 

My N-14 Cummins ECM (engine control module) wasn't manufactured with a bi-direcitonal communication feature. It was manufactured in 1993 before they made ECMs that could communicate with the TCM to adjust transmission functions and for the TCM to adjust engine functions.  Even if I upgrade to a later version of an Allison TCM it still won't have complete functionality like it would with newer engine ECMs.  As long as the transmission performs well and doesn't overheat I'll be happy.  If the ECM on my Cummins ever goes bad I'll see if I can upgrade to a Select Plus that has the bi-directional communications feature. 

Jon provided me with a SCAAN Input Worksheet that I'm currently working on.  I'm entering the tire size, axle drive ratio, GVW, desired cruising speed, fuel economy verses performance, etc.  He will enter the data in an Allison computer application which will determine the correct parameters to flash into the TCM. 

Currently I'm trying to figure out what rpm I should specify on the worksheet for cruising at 70 mph.  I'm thinking 1450 or 1500 would probably be the sweet spot.  If anyone has a high horsepower N-14 in their Eagle perhaps they could share their experiences concerning the best cruising rpm to strike a good balance between performance and fuel economy. 

By the way, if anyone could use an Allison HT740 core with an SAE 1 flywheel housing and flexplate adapter kit to fit 855 cubic inch Cummins engines I'll give someone a good deal on the whole shebang.  Send me a PM if you're interested.     
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