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Electrical Issues When Starting

This is a public forum to discuss Eagle related technical issues. If you are having a problem with your Eagle, this is the place to find help.
User avatar
gregmucahey
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:20 pm
Bus Model: 1975 Silver Eagle Model 05
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Electrical Issues When Starting

Post by gregmucahey »

blue_goose wrote:You should not be able to wiggle the connection at the battery! You have a bad cable or your connection at the battery is bad. When you try to start the coach the starter is drawing lots of amps. If any connection is bad it will open circuit, when you wiggle the cable it makes again. But not enough to run the starter.
Jack
Hi Jack,

I can't actually wiggle the battery cables. I hit the battery terminals with a hammer and I get the power back. Sorry wrong choice of words. I have an open circuit somewhere but just don't know how to find it. I've taken all the cables and grounds off, hit them with a wire brush and they are tight and snug.
75 Silver Eagle Model 05
40', 8V71, 4sp Spicer Trans
blue_goose
Club Member
Club Member
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:01 am
FMCA #: F46002
Bus Model: 1968 Eagle 05 for 26 years #7600 Still love Eagles but now have a
1990 MCI 102C3 converted by Hoffman Coach
Location: Polk City, Florida

Re: Electrical Issues When Starting

Post by blue_goose »

You could have a bad cable.
Jack
Jack Campbell
Polk City, Florida
FMCA F46002
Eagle International Life Member
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beltguy
Site Admin
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Posts: 2663
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:39 am
FMCA #: F246286
Bus Model: 1985 Eagle 10 with Series 60 and Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission (SOLD)
Location: Evergreen, CO
Contact:

Re: Electrical Issues When Starting

Post by beltguy »

Hi Greg. First of all, welcome to the forum. Secondly, what a great looking Eagle.

I have resized your avatar so that it does not extend into the text. I thought I had the settings set to avoid that problem, but I guess not.

Now to the question at hand. i can't see how the 120V issue caused a problem with the 12V chassis side of the wiring.

I would recommend that you go to the very basic step of applying 12V to the solenoid with a jumper. That will take all of the various starting circuit components out of the picture for the test. If it starts, then your batteries and cables are good. If it still clicks, you know that either the batteries or the cable(s) are bad.

I am a bit suspicious of the two different battery voltages. First of all, you would need to disconnect the battery cables to test that properly. If the battery cables were connected, the batteries should be the same voltage since they are tied together.

It sounds like your maintainer got the voltage to a reasonable level, but you will not be able to use it to charge that battery set very efficiently at 2.5 amps.

Someone suggested you test the battery voltage while trying to start the battery. That is a very good test of the battery. Just testing voltage with no load does not tell you the condition of the battery.

Jim
Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
'85 Eagle 10 with Series 60 & Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission SOLD
2005 Dodge 2500 with 5.9 Cummins and 6 speed manual 2022 Sunset 28 foot trailer
Bus Project pages: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog: https://beltguy.com/Travelogue/
Email: eaglesinternational.email at gmail.com   NOTE this email box is only for general correspondence related to the forum and not technical advice.  Technical questions will not receive a response.
User avatar
gregmucahey
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:20 pm
Bus Model: 1975 Silver Eagle Model 05
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Electrical Issues When Starting

Post by gregmucahey »

Hi Jack & Jim,

Thanks for the information. I'm headed out to the bus shortly and will reply back soon.

Thanks,

Greg
75 Silver Eagle Model 05
40', 8V71, 4sp Spicer Trans
User avatar
DoubleEagle
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Posts: 280
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:26 pm
Bus Model: 1975 Model 05 Eagle
1982 Model 10 Eagle
1984 Model 10 Eagle
1994 Model 15-45 Eagle
Location: Dayton, Ohio

Re: Electrical Issues When Starting

Post by DoubleEagle »

My first Eagle is the same year as yours. How the two problems could be related is a mystery, but a bad situation would be if household current was loose in your coach because of a chaffed wire that is grounding on the frame. If you have a multi-tester, and the coach plugged in, put the negative probe in the ground and then touch the coach with the other. If you read high voltage, you have an electrocution hazard because of bad wires or connections.

As far as turning the engine over goes, the starter is not getting full juice. I trust you have both rear master switches on (one higher, one lower, on right rear)? If you have the coach A/C parts out on your coach, it will be much easier to go into that hatch area and trace down the cables from the battery's. The original cables are like welding cable, in that they have very fine strands of copper that are easily corroded away when exposed to road salt. I had a similar problem on my second Eagle (1982) where the cables going to the shut-off switch were so corroded they totally broke off when I pulled on them. Beyond that, there could be bad contacts, and chaffed wires where they pass through panels. The relay switches might not be turning on the current as well, but that can be tested by hooking up a remote starter switch with two alligator clips. One clip goes on the positive cable at the starter, and the other on the positive terminal of the starter solenoid. If current is there, you squeeze the trigger and it starts (or not). I have original manuals for most models of Eagles, if you need more help, but wiring diagrams are not as handy as crawling around with a multi-tester. :)
Walter
Dayton, Ohio
1975 Silvereagle Model 05, 8V71, 4 speed Spicer
1982 Eagle Model 10, 6V92, 5 speed Spicer
1984 Eagle Model 10, 6V92 w/Jacobs, Allison HT740
1994 Eagle Model 15-45, Series 60 w/Jacobs, Allison HT746
User avatar
gregmucahey
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:20 pm
Bus Model: 1975 Silver Eagle Model 05
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Electrical Issues When Starting

Post by gregmucahey »

DoubleEagle wrote:My first Eagle is the same year as yours. How the two problems could be related is a mystery, but a bad situation would be if household current was loose in your coach because of a chaffed wire that is grounding on the frame. If you have a multi-tester, and the coach plugged in, put the negative probe in the ground and then touch the coach with the other. If you read high voltage, you have an electrocution hazard because of bad wires or connections.

As far as turning the engine over goes, the starter is not getting full juice. I trust you have both rear master switches on (one higher, one lower, on right rear)? If you have the coach A/C parts out on your coach, it will be much easier to go into that hatch area and trace down the cables from the battery's. The original cables are like welding cable, in that they have very fine strands of copper that are easily corroded away when exposed to road salt. I had a similar problem on my second Eagle (1982) where the cables going to the shut-off switch were so corroded they totally broke off when I pulled on them. Beyond that, there could be bad contacts, and chaffed wires where they pass through panels. The relay switches might not be turning on the current as well, but that can be tested by hooking up a remote starter switch with two alligator clips. One clip goes on the positive cable at the starter, and the other on the positive terminal of the starter solenoid. If current is there, you squeeze the trigger and it starts (or not). I have original manuals for most models of Eagles, if you need more help, but wiring diagrams are not as handy as crawling around with a multi-tester. :)
Thank you, DoubleEagle. Great information! I'll let you know if I need the wiring diagram. I would like to have a manual for the bus, however many things have been removed when the conversion was done. I'll send you a private message to discuss if it's worthwhile to have the manual.

What I found out today:

Straight to the point...the solenoid on the starter was bad. I jumped it and it would actuate but then immediately retract and make a weird coughing type sound. Like a 'puh...puh...puh". So, I pulled the starter and batteries loaded them up had Napa test them. The batteries tested good. Battery 1 @ 12.78V, measured 1622 Cranking Amps (CCA) and is rated at 1400 CCA. Battery 2 @ 12.81V and measured 1448 CCA, rated 1400 CCA. The starter test failed. It would move in and out while it was spinning. I think that is what caused the coughing noise i heard as it made contact with the gear to spin the flywheel momentarily then retract. I was fortunate the starter had a one year warranty and I purchased it 03/06/17 at a price of $481. They replaced it free of charge.

Due to time constraints, I was unable to install the starter and see if that fixed the problem. I'm going back in the morning to install the new starter and see what happens.
I'll post results tomorrow.

I don't know where the master switches are (yes I have a lot to learn). Are they on the right rear of the engine bay? My batteries are located in the right rear hatch behind where the original battery and water fill was located. I'm not sure what used to be there, but that is where my batteries are (about 1 foot to the side of the starter). They are exposed to the elements and road spray/dirt etc. I need to enclose them as a future project (many things to do though!)

This forum is great. All of you are very knowledgeable and I can't thank you enough for sharing that knowledge with me and the others in this forum.

Best,

Greg
75 Silver Eagle Model 05
40', 8V71, 4sp Spicer Trans
User avatar
gregmucahey
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:20 pm
Bus Model: 1975 Silver Eagle Model 05
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Electrical Issues When Starting

Post by gregmucahey »

Sorry for the delayed response.

I was able to finally get the new starter bolted on yesterday and the same problem still haunts me. When I turn the key and push the starter button everything shorts out and I have to pull/reconnect the battery cables to get the headlights to come back on.

Does anyone know where the starter relay switch is in the front electrical panel?

I checked the frame of the bus to ground and I got a negative value of -.03V. I don't think I have a chaffed wire grounding out on the 120V House circuit.
75 Silver Eagle Model 05
40', 8V71, 4sp Spicer Trans
User avatar
DoubleEagle
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Posts: 280
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:26 pm
Bus Model: 1975 Model 05 Eagle
1982 Model 10 Eagle
1984 Model 10 Eagle
1994 Model 15-45 Eagle
Location: Dayton, Ohio

Re: Electrical Issues When Starting

Post by DoubleEagle »

Were you able to establish whether you still have two master shut-off switches between the batteries and the starter? They both have to be turned on. The starter relay is in the rear electrical panel over the engine, which had different layouts depending on your serial number, but it is usually the fifth item from the left on the bottom. I still recommend getting a remote starter switch and testing the starter by jumping the main lead to the solenoid. That way, you will at least know that the starter can function, the rest is tracking down the wires and relays with a tester. It could be as simple as a corroded connection between the starter switch and the relay in the back, or the relay to the solenoid.
Walter
Dayton, Ohio
1975 Silvereagle Model 05, 8V71, 4 speed Spicer
1982 Eagle Model 10, 6V92, 5 speed Spicer
1984 Eagle Model 10, 6V92 w/Jacobs, Allison HT740
1994 Eagle Model 15-45, Series 60 w/Jacobs, Allison HT746
User avatar
gregmucahey
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:20 pm
Bus Model: 1975 Silver Eagle Model 05
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Electrical Issues When Starting

Post by gregmucahey »

DoubleEagle wrote:Were you able to establish whether you still have two master shut-off switches between the batteries and the starter? They both have to be turned on. The starter relay is in the rear electrical panel over the engine, which had different layouts depending on your serial number, but it is usually the fifth item from the left on the bottom. I still recommend getting a remote starter switch and testing the starter by jumping the main lead to the solenoid. That way, you will at least know that the starter can function, the rest is tracking down the wires and relays with a tester. It could be as simple as a corroded connection between the starter switch and the relay in the back, or the relay to the solenoid.
I don’t have the master shut-off switches. I have uploaded a photo so that you have an idea how my setup is. I have two batteries wired in parallel and a cable runs from the positive terminal on one of the batteries runs directly to the starter. I jumped the starter with a screwdriver and the solenoid moves out but then nothing....everything shorts out until I remove and replace the battery cables. Then I have full power again. I’ll try and get more pictures to day when I get to the bus.

Greg
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75 Silver Eagle Model 05
40', 8V71, 4sp Spicer Trans
User avatar
DoubleEagle
Club Member
Club Member
Posts: 280
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:26 pm
Bus Model: 1975 Model 05 Eagle
1982 Model 10 Eagle
1984 Model 10 Eagle
1994 Model 15-45 Eagle
Location: Dayton, Ohio

Re: Electrical Issues When Starting

Post by DoubleEagle »

I looked long and hard at the picture, and blew it up. Is this a picture of the previous starter? It seems a bit rusty for a recent replacement. I checked my 05 manuals (I found all of them) and the starter is supposed to be 12V in case you though it might be 24V. (12 or 24 should be stamped on the outside of the main case). It looks like the picture indicates you have negative on the ground and positive on the solenoid, so that should be okay. I went out in the rain and checked my 1975 05, which looks different in that the ground cable is attached to a stud at the rear which is parallel to the body. Your connection appears to be to a stud that is perpendicular to the body of the starter. Might be just a different setup. The only thing I see that might explain your trouble is that a lot of the cable ends do not seem to be professionally crimped and have open spaces that would allow moisture (salt laden moisture) to get in. That might explain that you were able to run the coach previously, but can't now, and things change when you move them to reattach them.

It might simply be that the previous owner did an amateur job of re-doing the cables (to save money), and saved more by eliminating the shut-off switches. You should have at least one shut-off switch. On my 1984 Model 10, there is just one 8D battery, and one shut-off (6V92T). It starts without a problem. I think there is a good chance the cable connections are the problem. A good shop that builds up cables could reproduce those short lengths at not too great a cost (easy for me to say, it's your money), and provide a shut-off switch. Indianapolis should have several places that could do it, and maybe load test your cables to be sure.
Walter
Dayton, Ohio
1975 Silvereagle Model 05, 8V71, 4 speed Spicer
1982 Eagle Model 10, 6V92, 5 speed Spicer
1984 Eagle Model 10, 6V92 w/Jacobs, Allison HT740
1994 Eagle Model 15-45, Series 60 w/Jacobs, Allison HT746
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